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Bootstrapping a 2-Sided Market to a 7-Figure Exit

March 25, 2022 |  

About this episode

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Anna Maste built Boondockers Welcome, a kind of Airbnb for RVers, to $100,000 in Annual Recurring Revenue (ARR) when she received an offer of 3.9 times ARR. Maste was about to accept the offer when some soul searching led Maste to believe she could do much better. That kicked off a two-year journey of building the value of her business.

Maste more than quadrupled their revenue and ultimately accepted an offer in the “mid-seven figures”. This episode is a masterclass in bootstrapping a two-sided market. You’ll discover how to:

  • Increase your revenue with one simple decision.
  • Overcome the fear of making your first hire.
  • Leverage Facebook Groups to generate new sales.
  • Know when an acquirer has the means to buy your business.
  • Bootstrap the growth of a two-sided market.
  • Accelerate word of mouth advertising for your business.
  • Avoid one of the biggest causes of strife in a family business.
  • Increase your prices without causing churn.
  • Replace yourself inside your business.
  • Find your next great employee.
  • Negotiate for your number with confidence.

Show Notes & Links

MicroConf
Chris Voss
Subscribesense.com

 

Past episodes mentioned


Rand Fishkin
Rob Walling
Tyler Tringas

 

About Our Guest

Anna Maste

Anna Maste and her mother Marianne Edwards co-founded Boondockers Welcome, a platform for RVers to connect and share camping on each other’s property, in 2012. With Anna’s background as a computer engineer and Marianne’s experience and audience writing travel guides for budget-conscious RVers, they were able to create a community that provides unique camping opportunities for RVers while creating connections that last a lifetime.

They grew the platform to over 2,800 hosts and 12,000 annual guest members before selling in 2021 to Harvest Hosts, another company in the alternative RV camping space.

 

Connect with Anna:

Watch the interview

Transcript

Disclaimer: Transcripts may contain a few typos. With most episodes lasting 60+ minutes, it can be difficult to catch some minor errors.

Anna Maste:

This was obviously more of a strategic growth opportunity that Harvest Hosts was looking for. I knew they had just taken a bunch of funding. They had announced a $37 million round.

John Warrillow:

Wow.

Anna Maste:

Only a few months prior to that. I mean, I knew they had a bunch of money to spend and the reason for their purchase was they had about 3,000 winery hosts. And I knew that they would essentially want to add our hosts to that mix in some way, to essentially increase their footprint.

John Warrillow:

Yeah.

Anna Maste:

So it was definitely a strategic buy. So I knew that our multiple wouldn’t be able to be substantially bigger than that [crosstalk 00:00:52].

John Warrillow:

Yeah, it’s interesting. When a strategic acquire a company, you think has a really a good rationale to buy your company raises a truckload of money, like $37 million, I think there’s two things that can happen. One is that they’ve got a war chest to go buy your business, which clearly you hoped and thought that Joel was clearly coming to you with that intent. The other side though, is that they’ve got a war chest to compete with you. And if you don’t nibble on the offer, it could mean that, “Okay, fine. Well, the gloves are off. We’re going to go do something on our own to compete with you.” Did that cross your minds that Joel would take that $37 million and create his own version of Boondockers Welcome?

John Warrillow:

Welcome to another edition of Built To Sell Radio, the podcast designed to help you punch above your weight in a negotiation to sell your company. I’m your host, John Warrillow. Today on the show, we’re going to hear from Anna Maste, who turned down an offer of 3.9 times ARR Annual Recurring Revenue in 2019, only to get a whole lot more in 2021. She’ll talk about how she did that.

John Warrillow:

Before we get there though, I just want to make sure, you know you can nominate a guest for Built To Sell Radio. Some of our best episodes like Anna, are from people, people like you who nominate business owners who have sold a company. So I’d love for you to think about who you might want to nominate, a business owner, who you think is a story worth sharing with our community. Just go to BuiltToSell.com/nominates. And while you’re on Built To Sell, you’ll also see show notes for Anna’s episode. We’re making a marked improvement in how we approach our show notes. So there you’ll see references to all of the things we talk about on today’s show and some of the other guests in the past that we reference, and also some definitions of some of the lingo and technical terms, which may be new to you, all at BuiltToSell.com. So check that out.

John Warrillow:

But first we’re got to go to Anna Maste, because this is a real kind of master class in bootstrapping a two-sided market. We’re going to talk about one way you can increase your revenue with one simple decision right now. How to overcome the fear of making your first hire, something I know a lot of people feel squeezy about. How to leverage Facebook Groups, to grow your business organically. How to know when an acquire has the means to buy your business. How to bootstrap the growth of a two-sided market, accelerate word of mouth, avoid one of the biggest causes of strife in a family business, increase your prices without causing churn, replace yourself inside your business and find your next great employee. Here to tell you all about it is Anna Maste.

John Warrillow:

Anna Maste, welcome to Built to Sell Radio.

Anna Maste:

Thanks John, I’m really excited to be here.

John Warrillow:

Boondockers Welcome. Okay, I’ll bite. What on earth does this company do?

Anna Maste:

So Boondockers welcome is a platform for RVers to connect with other like-minded people who will let you camp on their private property for a night or two for free. So-

John Warrillow:

This is like Airbnb for RVs. Am I getting the analogy [crosstalk 00:04:32] right?

Anna Maste:

You’re in the right ballpark. So there are a couple of other companies like Hipcamp that are sort of on that Airbnb model, where you pay to rent somebody’s private property. Boondockers Welcome works on more of a couch surfing model [crosstalk 00:04:46].

John Warrillow:

Oh cool.

Anna Maste:

Where the hosts are actually voluntarily letting people stay for free. And most of them are RVers or former RVers themselves, and they’re more in it for the social aspect. The RV community tends to be quite tight knit. They form very fast friendships and they really enjoy each other’s company, and that’s part of why people RV. And so, this sort of online community just became a natural extension of that.

John Warrillow:

My wife has this secret fantasy about renting an RV and driving all across the … We always talk about it. I’ve never done it and she always talks about it. So one day I’m going to have to become an RVer. Now but this is horribly stereotypical, but my sense is RVers are a little bit older and maybe the interaction with other people, the community building that’s … Especially if you live in a rural area, it’s probably nice to actually have some other interaction with human beings every once in a while. Am I getting into the head space a little bit?

Anna Maste:

Yeah, you’re right. I would say the average Boondockers Welcome host is either retired or semi-retired, and has a more rural property. Although there are a bunch of hosts who have urban driveways. My own downtown driveway is not very big, but you can come park your small Class B sort of Camper van sized RV in my driveway for a night. But the majority of our hosts are probably of that age, partly because that tends to be the age where people actually have property big enough to host study anybody. But the average [crosstalk 00:06:18].

John Warrillow:

Yeah, the time to drive around and-

Anna Maste:

Yeah, but the average guest actually has the age of the average guest has decreased significantly [crosstalk 00:06:25].

John Warrillow:

Isn’t that interesting?

Anna Maste:

In the last 10 years, right, and has-

John Warrillow:

And of course the pandemic just threw jet fuel on this whole industry, right? People can’t get [crosstalk 00:06:32]

Anna Maste:

100%.

John Warrillow:

Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

Anna Maste:

So, there was already a movement for people to stop work in their office jobs and go remote and yeah, that just happened tenfold more frequently in the pandemic.

John Warrillow:

Yeah. Wow. So what’s the business model? How do you make money doing this?

Anna Maste:

The guests pay an annual membership. So it’s currently $50 a year to have access to all of the hosts. And like I said, the hosts don’t accept any money unless you … Some of them will offer an electric hookup. In which case it is common courtesy to compensate them for their out-of-pocket costs. But the Boondockers Welcome as a business, our business model is essentially providing the service for the guests. So they pay an annual membership fee to the company.

John Warrillow:

How did you land on that as a business model?

Anna Maste:

The other options, I mean, the Pay-Per-Night Model has a very different feel to it. Plus there’s a lot of logistics, both for a company and for a host that you have to jump through. All of a sudden, the hosts are running a business. They have to claim that on their taxes. They have to make sure that their insurance covers that. Whereas, the idea of inviting other RVers to come stay on your property was something that already happened all the time in the RV industry. People would meet and hand out cards saying, “Oh, if you’re ever in my neck of the woods, come stay in my driveway.”

Anna Maste:

It’s a very easy guest to have, an RVer who pulls up and you don’t have to do anything right, except maybe run them an extension cord. So most hosts wouldn’t even consider taking money. So that wasn’t really an option for us from a business model perspective. The other option would’ve been sort of an advertising-supported model and that wasn’t really something that was in our wheelhouse at all and not something that I was really interested in learning. And it took off. It’s pretty easy for people to justify spending $50 a year for what could be an endless supply of hosts. And there are almost 3000 hosts right now across North America. So a lot of options for that [crosstalk 00:08:48]

John Warrillow:

And how many members?

Anna Maste:

When we sold, we had about 12,000 annual members, guest traveling members.

John Warrillow:

Wow. And what do they get for that? Like, is it a mobile app that they use? Or is it a desktop web browser?

Anna Maste:

So for a long time, we only had a web browser app. And then shortly before we sold, we did finally release a mobile app as well, but it provided a whole experience allowing … Once you had a paid membership, you could browse all of the hosts before even paying at that time. But once you paid, you could connect with hosts, request stays, very Airbnb-like interface in that respect and hosts could manage any guests that they had. So we tried to provide a really good experience for that.

John Warrillow:

Yeah. I mean, this is a classic two-sided market, which once they’re going, I mean, this is a license to print money. It’s an amazing business bond, but boy, it is tough to get going, because you’ve got to somehow keep the plates sort of circling in the air. You got to have enough hosts to make it worthwhile for the guy. And so how did you … I’ve got so many questions around that, but how did you get this thing off the ground? Because again, most two-sided markets have like tens of millions of dollars of VC money and they have enough money to sort of get both sides of the market in place. But I’m so fascinated because you didn’t have any of that.

Anna Maste:

No. We had a little bit of luck and timing and some good secret sauce, which was that my co-founder is my mother who had been RVing for about probably 10 or 15 years by the time we started Boondockers Welcome, and she had, sort of to help pay the travel bills, started prior to Boondockers Welcome a e-Travel Guide that she had, her own website that she sold. They’re called the Frugal Shunpikers Guides to RVing, sort of geared towards finding free camping on public land in the US. And there is a lot of it to be found and some of it is beautiful and some of it is not. So she had a series of six travel guides and she had been selling those for five or seven years by the time we started Boondockers Welcome and had a significant mailing list at that point of people who were interested, who were RVers and people who were the seed hosts for Boondockers Welcome. So that was really the thing that allowed us to start from nothing, without a bunch of venture funding in our back pocket.

John Warrillow:

Family businesses are always tricky. How did you deal with the equity split with your mom? Because first of all, she’s your mom, so that’s hard. Not only that, she’s coming into this business with an asset, right, because that’s actually a significant asset as you just characterized it. I mean, she had mailing lists and not everybody has that. It took her years to develop. So how did you guys figure out who would take what split on the equity?

Anna Maste:

Yeah. So when she approached me with the idea, she was actually just looking for advice from me. I’m a computer engineer by trade. So she wanted to know, if she tried … She was thinking of outsourcing the building of the platform essentially, and wanted to get my take on how much it would cost and what the best channels to find someone to do it, would be. And I was a little worried that she was going to pour her life savings into something that hadn’t necessarily been fully vetted out. And again, being a computer engineer, I happened to be on maternity leave and here in Canada, we’re lucky enough to have 12 months of maternity leave. So I offered to use my maternity leave time to … She would come and spend time with her new grandson and I built the business for her. So my technical skills essentially was my sweat equity and we ended up with a 50-50 split.

John Warrillow:

So you bribed your mom to babysit your kid. Is that basically [crosstalk 00:12:57] a transaction could happen?

Anna Maste:

I don’t think there was any bribing going on there. I think it was win-win-win all around.

John Warrillow:

Okay. Got it. Okay, so you went with a 50-50 split, even though she had the list, but you had this very rare skill set, the computer engineering and so forth. Got it, that makes sense. How quick was the trajectory here? Because again, my perception of two-sided markets is you kind of have to flip a switch and it has to just scale like overnight. Was that the case in your business? Did you guys just hit a switch or what was it truly like?

Anna Maste:

The truth is not at all and partly because this … And it was a side project for us for a very long time. Even after I went back to work or my maternity leave ended, I went back to work. I was still working a full-time job and had eventually two kids at home. Certainly, we didn’t have the time or the money to throw into it. And it’s a relatively low lifetime value product. It’s hard as a non venture backed company to throw a bunch of money into advertising to try and build up that two-sided marketplace. And as it turned out, the timing, I think it was still sort of early in the fully connected road travel timeframe.

Anna Maste:

People were sort of just getting to the point where they had an iPad on the road all the time and were able to use that sort of platform. So nobody else was sweeping in underneath us to steal that from us, that first mover advantage that we had. And because of the business model that we chose, it wasn’t an appealing business model to any sort of venture backed company, because it didn’t scale based on the number of nights that people stayed, right. It was $50 per user flat. That was it. And so-

John Warrillow:

Did you ever entertain any conversations with the VC community or any sort of investors?

Anna Maste:

Towards the very end, sort of as the pandemic really peaked and RV travel really became very, very popular, we did have several investors reach out to inquire about whether or not we were interested in taking on any funding. And that was not something that was really in my interests whatsoever.

John Warrillow:

I want to get to that, specifically to the VCs who are reaching out, the investors who are reaching out to. Did you get a sense of their thesis? Like what they would’ve done to your business model in order to make it more scalable? Would they have gone to the per-night model? Did you get any sense of what they would done [crosstalk 00:15:43]?

Anna Maste:

No, we never really got far enough into the conversations and I never really got enough indication of value that they would provide other than a bunch of money.

John Warrillow:

Right.

Anna Maste:

And yeah, the idea of trying to throw a bunch of rocket fuel on the company, wasn’t something that appealed to either my mother or I. We always ran the company with a very customer centered focus. Our hosts were essentially providing all of the value for us. [crosstalk 00:16:16] And therefore it was imperative that we keep them as the top priority at all times. So, the idea of taking a bunch of money to try and grow our guest base while the host base didn’t keep up, was always something that we were afraid of and didn’t want to push.

John Warrillow:

Yeah. Yeah. Could you estimate the lifetime value of a typical member?

Anna Maste:

The typical member would probably only have a membership for two years, somewhere in that vicinity, because some people retire and then they’re full-time RVers for five or 10 years. But the average RVer is probably only going to do that for a year or two before they feel they’ve seen everything and then they settle down.

John Warrillow:

Yeah. Yeah. Okay, got it. So a couple of hundred or $100 of lifetime value would’ve been a classic. So clearly you can’t spend a ton to acquire customers at that rate. So you had this, you mentioned your mom’s travel guide list was how many? 12,000 or something people on there? How many were on that list? Do you remember?

Anna Maste:

Oh, I don’t know how many people were on that list to begin with. At the time when we launched though, we had about 200 hosts who signed up sort of from that initial list.

John Warrillow:

From that initial one.

Anna Maste:

Yeah.

John Warrillow:

Okay. Got it. So once you’d exhausted the lists from the Frugal Travel Guides, how did you then go about acquiring members beyond that? What other techniques did you try?

Anna Maste:

So we were very, very naive at the beginning and very much thought that they would come and find us.

John Warrillow:

Ah, the old field of dreams, “If you build it, they will come.” [crosstalk 00:18:00] strategy.

Anna Maste:

That’s right.

John Warrillow:

Never heard that before.

Anna Maste:

No, no. Clearly it didn’t really work to any great degree, but we did have enough traction that a few guests would find us and the RV community is really, like I’ve said, very tight knit, very word of mouth. And every time you go camping somewhere and end up meeting your neighbor and having a beer around a campfire, the first thing that they ask is, “Oh, where have you come from? And where are you going?” So, the conversation often would say, “Oh, I just stayed at this great Boondockers Welcome host.” And that would precipitate the, “Oh, what’s that?” And so, as much as it’s very hard to measure, I know that the word of mouth avenue is really a large part responsible for our growth.

John Warrillow:

Got it. Got it. I’m completely ignorant. What is a Boondocker?

Anna Maste:

So, I mean, the boondocks would be like the middle of nowhere.

John Warrillow:

Yeah. Okay.

Anna Maste:

So if you’re boondocking, the traditional term would mean camping without any hookups, right? You don’t have electric power, you don’t have any water. When we started Boondockers Welcome, we kind of expected it to be people boondocking in each other’s driveway, sort of dry camping is another word that gets used for it.

John Warrillow:

Cool.

Anna Maste:

As it turned out, a lot of our hosts actually offer electrical, water hookups. Some of them even put in like RV pads for their Boondockers Welcome guests because they enjoy having them so much.

John Warrillow:

But you can see, I mean, I’m not surprised that the word of mouth was the accelerant though, because to your point, I’d imagine there’s a fairly tight knit community and there’s definitely some word of mouth going on. So interesting. So how big did you get this company before for you first sort of thought about selling it?

Anna Maste:

So we reached a point where I considered selling back in about 2019. And at that point we had about a $100,000 in ARR.

John Warrillow:

Annual Recurring Revenue, for people to do know that acronym.

Anna Maste:

That’s right. Yep.

John Warrillow:

Yep. Okay, good.

Anna Maste:

I can’t remember how many hosts we might have had at that time, maybe 1,500 hosts and probably in the like five or 6,000 guests range, maybe a little less than that. And at that time, my mother who is obviously older than me, was 67 years old and was looking to retire and sort of, we enjoyed running the company, but she was still traveling and sort of just wanted to be able to do that. We were still a company of two at that point. She handled all of the customer support, all of sort of the business development relationships with other RVing companies that we had developed, all of our social and marketing. And I was still doing all of the technical work and I wasn’t really sure how I felt about replacing her with somebody else.

Anna Maste:

At that point, we thought we might just sell and that would be a way to sort of both exit and not hurt our relationship at all and not have to worry about any other messiness. And we had a gentleman who runs a company in the RV space who had reached out to us a couple of times, asking if we were at all interested. And sort of, he happened to reach out one more time just as we were sort of coming to this, “Well, maybe it’s time,” moment. And so we did actually go down the road at that time, this was in 2019, of thinking of selling. So like I said, we had about $100,000 a year in revenue and the offer that he came back at was about 3.9 times our ARR. And I actually met with Thomas Smale from FE International and M&A advisor.

Anna Maste:

I met him at a conference that I was at and sort of, they went over those numbers and said … And we actually had our own accountants as well, who sort of went over those numbers and said, “Yeah, that’s a very reasonable offer based on your ARR and your growth.” So we had the Letter of Intent in hand and were about to sign it. And then, that conference that I went to actually, it was MicroConf, I just sort of got really reinvigorated while I was there and decided not to sell. So I [crosstalk 00:22:33] came home and told my mom that I wasn’t going to let her sell it.

John Warrillow:

Wow. Okay, so we got lots of questions there. So for folks who don’t know, MicroConf, that’s Rob Walling’s conference. It’s for micro, mostly bootstrap, or mostly bootstrap SaaS companies and apps. Great conference, I’ve heard amazing things about it. So it sounds like you had a great experience there.

Anna Maste:

I did, definitely. It was yeah, life changing and just I had a lot of great conversations and met a lot of people who were sort of looking to have an idea or a business that had anywhere near this. It certainly wasn’t a phenomenal success. $100,000 a year for two people is barely enough to put food on the table. But I mean, it was my full-time job, but obviously I have a spouse who has a good job, so it wasn’t replacing my, my computer engineering salary at that point. But I had a lot of vision when I came back that we could grow it even further. And I took a lot of the pointers that I learned at MicroConf and put them into practice.

Anna Maste:

I did hire someone to take over all of the customer support responsibilities. And then I took on some of the financial and business development responsibilities from my mom, so she could essentially step back from the day to day. And we continued like that for another two years. At that point I didn’t buy her out. I did consider that, but we just decided that I would take a salary and she would stay on as a 50% equity holder.

John Warrillow:

Okay. That was going to be a question. Did you ever consider taking the 3.9 placing evaluation at whatever, 400 grand and saying, “Okay, here’s a check to 200 grand mom.” [crosstalk 00:24:19]

Anna Maste:

Yeah, it definitely did occur to us, but I mean, in retrospect, I’m quite glad I didn’t, only because when you do sell a company, if you have bought out a previous co-founder and they haven’t essentially gained from that higher sale price than what you bought them out for, I feel like there would be some difficult relationship moments. And if it had just been a co-founder, that would’ve been one thing, but it was my mom.

John Warrillow:

Yeah. Yeah. One of the many complexities of being in business with a parent, right, or a family member of any sort is exactly right. You buy them out and two years later, you go on and sell for three times more. You kind of feel like a bit of a keel. Makes Thanksgiving dinner, little bit treacherous.

Anna Maste:

Exactly.

John Warrillow:

Yeah. Yeah. What was your mom’s reaction when you came back from MicroConf and you’re like, “We’re not selling.”

Anna Maste:

I think I must have dropped enough hints when I was coming back to let her know that was probably going to happen. We invited her over for dinner and I said, “Nope, we’re not going to sell.” And she said, “Yeah, I thought that might be what you were going to say.” I think she was fine with it, right. I mean, I think it wasn’t about the money that would’ve come in from that sale at all. It was more just about a relief of the responsibilities that she was looking for, and I was still willing to offer that. So that was fine for her.

John Warrillow:

What was the reaction of the acquirer who had made the offer at 3.9, when you told him, we’re not selling?

Anna Maste:

He was disappointed clearly. I mean, I don’t think … We hadn’t gotten any lawyers involved. I know he had done a couple of acquisitions before, so he, I think, had some people that helped put his Letter of Intent together or whatever, but I don’t think he was out of pocket a whole ton of money for having lost that opportunity.

John Warrillow:

So what is it that you learned at the MicroConf Conference that you came to start to apply to the business? In other words, how did you improve its value over time?

Anna Maste:

Well, I mean, part of it was entirely mental and just getting over my own imposter syndrome, stumbling blocks. The idea that I couldn’t hire, somebody was something that had sort of weighed on me, that I didn’t want to be somebody’s boss. And then I came back and realized, this is not that hard, I can do this. And so, that wasn’t really necessarily something I learned. It was just something that I sort of felt, as I realized and talked with other people that they don’t have some superpower that I don’t. But as far as actually building the business, we raised our prices almost immediately. It took a little while to get that in order but that was one of the biggest pieces of advice that every MicroConf, I think, seems to harp on, but it’s like the levers that you have to increase your revenue, raising your prices is the easiest one. And we were already, I think at that point, we were only charging $30 a year, which was really underpriced.

John Warrillow:

And what was the membership’s reaction to the increase in price? You recall? I mean, it was much different scale obviously, but when Netflix a couple of years ago, went to raise their price unilaterally, it basically cost the internet to break. There were so many people who were outraged that Netflix would do that. You’re obviously a different business, but what was your memory’s reaction?

Anna Maste:

The fact that we had such a sort of low lifetime value, meaning that we didn’t actually get that many years of renewal out of each customer, meant that it actually wasn’t a huge, a bad business decision for us to just grandfather in all our current customers. And in addition, churn happens a lot because people don’t necessarily know if they’re going to continue traveling. And so they wouldn’t renew their membership, but we instead, we grandfathered in current members at their existing $30 a year price and promised that as long as they didn’t let their membership lapse, they could keep that price. So that really actually helped bump up that lifetime value, because people would continue to renew, even though they weren’t sure if they were going to be traveling that year.

John Warrillow:

Yeah, the old fear of missing out strategy, right.

Anna Maste:

Yeah.

John Warrillow:

You’re like, “Oh, well, if you churn and you come back, it’s going to cost you almost twice as much.”

Anna Maste:

Yeah.

John Warrillow:

So got it. So you grandfathered in the guys and gals at 30 a month. 30 a year, excuse me. And then for new people, you went to 50. You out over the imposter syndrome. I find this fascinating, because I think there is … Look, there are two types of entrepreneurs. There are some entrepreneurs who are very comfortable hiring and they’re like, “Yeah, of course I’m going to hire. I’m not doing it myself.” I get that sort of persona. There is this other personality type and maybe you can speak to this where, “Gosh, that first employee is like this commitment right. Now, I’m responsible for someone else’s mortgage.” And it’s this big kind of … How did you get over that pump?

Anna Maste:

I think a lot of it came to realizing that, putting in place the processes and checklists and having some good onboarding would help me feel a little relieved from that. And since we were essentially replacing my mother’s job with the customer support role, I mean, we had a lot of canned answers and things like that already in place. It wasn’t that difficult for us to sort of put together a bit of an onboarding and some training. And once I realized that, if I did that, then even if that support person didn’t work out, I would still have that and I would be able to do it again and hire another person to take over that role. And I think both my mother and I suffer a little bit from just perfectionism and not thinking that anybody else is going to do it the right way.

John Warrillow:

Yeah, you’re control freaks.

Anna Maste:

Little bit. But I was able to convince her that as long as we are willing to pay enough money, we can find somebody who is absolutely skilled enough to do this. We knew we weren’t going to outsource our customer support to some Indian Call Center because we’ve got a lot of senior citizens in our customer base and American red blooded not really interested in talking to somebody with a foreign accent about how to RV travel. It’s unfortunately a very homogeneous customer base. And so it was really important to have somebody local to North America who understood our being. And we actually ended up hiring that customer support person from our membership.

Anna Maste:

We put out in our newsletter, we said, “We’re hiring a customer support person.” We had 200 applicants for the job. And this was obviously pre-pandemic. We said, “You can work remotely. You can work from your RV. You can make your own hours.” We sort of only requested that they check in a couple of times a day to answer support requests. It’s not a B2B business, so we know that our customers are not generally knocking down our door with important things that need to be answered in the next 10 minutes. So a 24-hour turnaround was fine.

Anna Maste:

So we were offering a really flexible working environment and it was really appealing. And yeah, we hired an amazing customer support person, originally just on a part-time contract for 15 hours a week. And she eventually came on full-time as sort of our community director. She also had a marketing background, so she took on a lot of our marketing responsibilities as well and it was a great decision.

John Warrillow:

Amazing, amazing. So again, things that you did to improve the value of your company, number one, you raised prices. Number two, you hired to take this some of a customer support piece and marketing piece off your shoulders. What else did you do to improve the business after MicroConf?

Anna Maste:

We had already started using social media a lot, not necessarily Facebook Posts, but we had found Facebook Groups worked really well for us, sort of giving the RV community a specific place to discuss our offering just amongst themselves, and that works really, really well. And we sort of doubled down on that a lot, just more conscious moderating and trying to funnel people towards that Facebook Group. And that actually really helped drive sales in a-

John Warrillow:

Anna, to be clear, these were groups that you created and hosted and moderated?

Anna Maste:

Yes. So we created and hosted and moderated the group, but we tried to be very hands off and sort of just let the other members sell it for us, because they were amazing at that.

John Warrillow:

Got it. That’s super helpful. So the Facebook Groups were great, the onboarding, the customer support person, raising prices. Anything else that you did that improved the business, its value?

Anna Maste:

Again, I think we were already sort of doing this prior to MicroConf, but one of the biggest drivers of just sales every week was a newsletter that we sent out. We had played around with different newsletter formats over the years, but we finally settled on essentially a newsletter that was just, “Here are the 10 or whatever, the 20 new hosts who’ve signed up in the last week.” And that was just a huge driver for sales every week. We would see a giant spike in that, because it was easy to read [crosstalk 00:34:38].

John Warrillow:

So cool because [crosstalk 00:34:39]. It’s like you imagine, “Oh, I could go to like Oxford County, Ohio and there’s this great village that looks over this Hilltop.” And you could really start to … It would be fun to look forward to that, even though you have no plans to go to that place.

Anna Maste:

Exactly. [crosstalk 00:34:54].

John Warrillow:

That’s cool. Yeah.

Anna Maste:

I would look through it every week and I mean, some of them, the pictures were just mind blowing, just this horse in a field with mountains in the background and you’re like, “Oh my gosh, I could stay there for free?”

John Warrillow:

Yeah.

Anna Maste:

So it sold itself.

John Warrillow:

I want to opt in for the newsletter. Do you guys still do the newsletter? I’m like, “Where do I opt in for the newsletter?”

Anna Maste:

I don’t think all the new hosts are in the newsletter anymore.

John Warrillow:

Oh, it’s a bummer.

Anna Maste:

Our acquirers have put the new hosts a little bit behind a paywall, I think.

John Warrillow:

Okay. So let’s get into that. So you’re making these changes and what impacts it having on sales? When you had the first offer you’re at about 100,000 in ARR. It sounds like you got it up from there when you started to sell it a second time?

Anna Maste:

Yeah. We more than doubled our growth every year for the next two years, until we did sell. So both, number of hosts as well as as number of guests, which obviously we need a growth both sides of the marketplace to make that happen. So it was partially those changes that we put into effect, but I mean, there was also a huge market of forces that really helped give us some headwinds.

John Warrillow:

Yeah. We’ve already talked about the pandemic, so 100 to 200, 200 to 400. So you were sort of, if I’m reading between the lines, it’s kind of like half a million to a million of ARR, that sort of space. I don’t know.

Anna Maste:

Yep, that sort of ballpark. Yeah.

John Warrillow:

Got it. Okay. That’s great. So really, a dramatic improvement over the first nine years, because it was nine years to get to 100,000.

Anna Maste:

I think seven, seven years [crosstalk 00:36:35] to get to that 100,000. But like I said, that was very much a side project for the first five years of those seven.

John Warrillow:

Okay. Okay. But it’s considerable growth in a relatively mature stage of the business, which is exciting to see. For folks who are slamming their heads against the wall thinking, “Is this ever going to work? Is this ever going to work?” I think the message at least you would deliver or from your example is that you’ve got to stick to it for a relatively long time before …

Anna Maste:

I mean, being able to put in more time and effort, obviously I think we could have to move the needle earlier than we did. But when I was able to … For me personally, it was when my kids started school full time, I was able to really focus on the business more. And that was sort of from 2017 to 2019, we went from probably 30K to a 100K ARR. So that was a pretty decent swing up as well. And then up and to the right from there.

John Warrillow:

So what was the trigger that made you decide to sell the second time, if I can use that term?

Anna Maste:

Yeah. So I mean, things weren’t going well. We were probably reaching a point where we should start thinking of hiring more people. It was still just myself and Carrie, who I had hired to replace my mom. And the market, like we’ve talked about, had really, really gone nuts and I was approached by Joel Holland, who is the CEO of Harvest Hosts. We had had a friendly relationship for a few years, sort of just keeping in touch.

Anna Maste:

Harvest Hosts is another sort of alternative camping offering. They orchestrate stays at wineries and breweries and also work on sort of a membership model like we did. So it was a very complimentary product. We had like reciprocal discounts with each other and had had that for years. About 50% of our members were also members in Harvest Hosts.

Anna Maste:

So when he approached us in early 2021 and asked if we were interested in selling, my initial reaction was, “No, we’re having too much fun,” which was pretty much my standard line for everybody who asked at that point. But he was persistent and said, “Name your number,” which I know is not really the thing you’re supposed to do. You’re not supposed to name your number. But at the same time, my mother was pushing 70 and she and I were both still taking dividends from the company. I took a salary, we took dividends as well, but we weren’t funneling a lot of money back into the company, partly because I knew that this was sort of funding my mother’s retirement to some degree. So the idea that this could be peak RV, I don’t know. We were very much in a very, very RV positive atmosphere at that point. And I know that sort of, this is my mom’s whole nest egg essentially and I didn’t want … Part of me worried that, we had something that was a very valuable asset at this point and I didn’t want to go over the peak.

Anna Maste:

I had heard, you know, too many stories about other founders who said no, when … I think Rand Fishkin told the story in his Lost And Founder book [crosstalk 00:40:20].

John Warrillow:

Oh, great book. Yeah.

Anna Maste:

About just riding over the peak and getting a great offer and saying, “No, I think we can get way more than that.” And obviously we weren’t anywhere near the level that he was in that story, but it resonated with me and I thought, “I don’t want to ride this over the top.”

John Warrillow:

Yeah.

Anna Maste:

And so, when that offer came, and again it was such a good synergy for that particular acquirer, it seemed like a natural time to just go ahead.

John Warrillow:

Got it. And so did you have any sense of what it might be worth? So clearly you’re now half million in ARR or more, and you’d already had an offer of four times your revenue. So I’m assuming, you started to do the math thinking, “Okay, this is definitely a seven figure exit I’m looking at and it could be …”

Anna Maste:

Yeah.

John Warrillow:

It could be bigger. Yeah.

Anna Maste:

Yeah. So we had kept in touch with FE International, the brokers who we had talked to prior, and they had sort of done annual evaluations based on our PNL statements. So I had a good idea of what it was worth from that perspective from a ARR times some kind of multiple perspective, but I also-

John Warrillow:

What multiple they are, were they saying?

Anna Maste:

It was, still in like that three to four range.

John Warrillow:

Got it.

Anna Maste:

I mean, but I also recognized that, that multiple is probably more aimed at a private equity or somebody who’s looking to buy it for financial reasons. Whereas this was obviously more of a strategic growth opportunity that Harvest Hosts was looking for. I knew they had just taken a bunch of funding. They had announced a $37 million round.

John Warrillow:

Wow.

Anna Maste:

Only a few months prior to that. So, I mean, I knew they had a bunch of money to spend and the reason for their purchase was they had about 3000 winery hosts. And I knew that they would essentially want to add our hosts to that mix in some way, to essentially increase their footprint.

John Warrillow:

Yeah.

Anna Maste:

So it was definitely a strategic buy. So I knew that our multiple would be able to be substantially bigger than that [crosstalk 00:42:48]

John Warrillow:

Yeah. It’s interesting when a strategic acquire, a company you think has a really, a good rationale to buy your company raises a truckload of money, like $37 million. I think there’s sort of two things that can happen. One, is that they’ve got a war chest to go buy your business, which clearly you hoped and thought that Joel was clearly coming to you with that intent. The other side though, is that they’ve got a war chest to compete with you. And if you don’t nibble on the offer, it could mean that, “Okay, fine. Well, the gloves are off. We’re going to go do something on our own to compete with you.” Did that cross your mind that Joel would take that $37 million and create his own version of Boondockers Welcome?

Anna Maste:

Maybe briefly, but we had a very good brand and very devoted customer and host base. Yeah, like I said, they were the lifeblood of our business and we had a moat really that the brand that we had built was substantial and I knew that. And during the acquisition process, the due diligence process, Harvest Hosts actually went and did their own sort of survey and our NPR scores were through the roof. And we hadn’t a habit of doing NPR surveys regularly, but it didn’t surprise me at all.

John Warrillow:

When you say NPR, I’m used to the acronym NPS, Net Promoter Score. Do you mean NPS?

Anna Maste:

Yes. No, sorry. That is what I mean. Thank you. Yes.

John Warrillow:

Oh yeah, cool. I just want to make sure for our listeners that we’re talking the same language. Got it. So they did an NPS. Did they do it with both the hosts as well as the members?

Anna Maste:

Yes.

John Warrillow:

And where did you see the greatest moat? Was it with the hosts or more the members?

Anna Maste:

Both. I think the hosts are much more loyal because some of our hosts had been hosts for the better part of a decade.

John Warrillow:

And harder to … [crosstalk 00:44:58].

Anna Maste:

Harder to replace.

John Warrillow:

I could imagine it’s hard to … Yeah, harder to replace, because the members kind of come and go, people get interested in RVing and they kind of lose interest. But the hosts, that’s a very attractive asset I would think and hard to just kind of replicate overnight.

Anna Maste:

And that was, I think, the hardest part about selling was, we knew that if we were going to sell, we needed to sell to somebody who was going to protect and take care of our hosts in a way that didn’t destroy that asset. And I mean, obviously, it’s out of my hands once I’ve sold it, but what we built has personal meaning to us as well. So we didn’t want to see it dismantled or sent in a direction where the hosts no longer felt valued.

John Warrillow:

How did you ensure they were going to feel valued? I mean, did you do paper something with Joel, like a legal protection so that he couldn’t do certain things? Or was it just a handshake deal? How did you protect the hosts? [crosstalk 00:46:03]

Anna Maste:

Yeah, we didn’t do anything written in that regard, and I mean maybe in retrospect, we should have. But I got a very good feeling from Joel and throughout the entire process, he was very much a man of his word. And essentially, we were promised that boondockers Welcome would be kept as its own sort of brand and tier. The Harvest Hosts did integrate them together in that you can buy a Harvest Hosts membership and for an upgrade, you can all also get a Boondockers Welcome membership. So they’ve got that expansion revenue opportunity and they had a much larger customer base than us. So lots of people to send towards that expansion revenue. But keeping those as separate entities was part of that negotiation, just so that our hosts who weren’t making any money as opposed to Harvest Hosts hosts are usually. Like I said, wineries and the expectation there is that you’re going to come in and buy a bottle of wine, right.

John Warrillow:

Sure.

Anna Maste:

They’re doing this as a business, small businesses trying to improve their revenue stream. But we knew that we didn’t want our hosts to feel like they were suddenly being treated as a commodity, that we didn’t want the guests who show up in a winery and say, “I’ve paid you. I’ve bought my bottle of wine. Now I can not even say, thank you.” For our hosts, it was much more about just having honest social interactions and gratitude from their guests.

John Warrillow:

Makes sense, makes sense. So Joel says, “Name your number.” What’d you say?

Anna Maste:

Well, I said, “I’ll get back to you.” At that point, I mean, I had had an internal number in my head at one point and I pretty much multiplied that by two and a half, but I also went … We have a family, a friend of my husband’s actually who we went to university with, who is now the CEO of a venture-backed startup and has just a lot of knowledge about valuations and sort of was able to sit there and think, “Well, if I was acquiring you, what would my payback period be? And what would I be willing to pay? And I feel like yeah, this is actually a pretty reasonable number.” So I did actually go back with a number and I said, “This is what we’re looking for.” And it was something that my mother and I obviously had discussed and said, “Yeah, we would be …” We couldn’t say no to that number.

John Warrillow:

So I have to ask, what was the number? Every listener of this show is going, “You got to ask John.” What was your magic number?

Anna Maste:

It was mid seven figures, is what I will say. And they came back to be … It was very, very close to that. So we were happy and like I said, we said, “Yeah, if they reach this, then we can’t really say no.” So we said yes.

John Warrillow:

Okay. So a couple questions. This is a goofy question, but when you went back to Joel with the dream number, was it in writing or did you speak it to him? Did you orally say it’s X million dollars? Or did you email him?

Anna Maste:

I just wrote it in an email. I think that’s all it was. It was a number in an email.

John Warrillow:

Okay. So-

Anna Maste:

And he of course now has a board because he’s got funding. So he had to go take it to the board and then get approval. And they did their own valuation and came back and said, “Well, this is a generous, based on our valuations. This is …” I think his words were, “It’s better valuation than we got when we raised money.”

John Warrillow:

Yeah.

Anna Maste:

So, I kind of felt like, if he’s being truthful there, then we’re doing okay.

John Warrillow:

Yeah, I think you did. So you didn’t really get a sense from Joel about his reaction. One of the beauties of throwing out a number in person is you can see this sort of see the body language of the acquirer. Like if they kind of lurched backwards and throw their eyes up in the air thinking now … But in an email you don’t get the … Did he respond at all with any sense of whether he thought that was anywhere close to being what they would pay?

Anna Maste:

I think he essentially just said, “I’m going to have to go talk to my board and get back to you.”

John Warrillow:

Got it.

Anna Maste:

And honestly, I see what you’re saying about the in-person, but I felt like there’s a bit of a double-edged sword there and I wasn’t sure [crosstalk 00:50:31].

John Warrillow:

Oh, for sure.

Anna Maste:

How confident and strong-willed and poker faced, I would be able to be in that conversation. So the email was definitely the way for me.

John Warrillow:

Yeah. No, I wasn’t suggesting you do it in person. I just was saying, I was curious about his physical reaction to receiving it, but obviously over email, you can’t. That’s great. One of the things that I’ve heard from a lot of other guests is, the moment they send an email like that, the clock starts ticking and they start to get nervous, right. If they don’t get a response after a day, they think the deal’s off. And then if they don’t get a response for three days, it’s like, “Oh, what did I do? I’ve totally overshot this.” And a week goes by and they still haven’t got an email. And then they’re like, “You know, I didn’t really mean that number. What we would really accept …” And then they’re negotiating with themselves. Did you get into that sense of sitting on your hands, waiting for Joel to respond?

Anna Maste:

I think our best alternative to a negotiated agreement was just not selling and continuing as we were. We hadn’t sought out this offer. And so for me, I was able to sort of say, “I’m just going to walk away and not check my email for the next 24 hours and not stress about it.” And I don’t think he left us hanging too, too long, but yeah, I didn’t really second guess that.

John Warrillow:

How did you and your mom arrive at the number, this sort of dream number? Was she involved? I’m assuming as a 50% shareholder, she was very much involved. Take me inside the room, when you and your mom are talking about that.

Anna Maste:

Well, like I said before, I had sort of this valuation from the brokers that we talked to about, based on ARR and growth rates, that this is what the number would be and I knew that wasn’t enough. I knew that, at this point, it was March. So this is just before the travel season really takes off. It’s a very seasonal business. You do most of your revenue between like May and August.

John Warrillow:

Yeah.

Anna Maste:

And so, I knew that there was significant increase in that ARR coming still, right? The year before, our ARR had actually taken a significant hit during the beginning of the pandemic, when everybody hunkered down and didn’t do anything. So that number was already, a little bit depressed because of that. So we sort of took all those things into consideration and to some degree just kind of said, “Wouldn’t it be nice to have this much money and not have to run this business anymore?”

Anna Maste:

So we did. We had lots of … I mean, at that point, it was still pretty lockdown COVID. So, a lot of Zoom conversations about that, back and forth, and it was pretty easy for us to agree that, yeah this number is great and if they hit that, then we’re willing to go ahead, and otherwise we’ll just continue doing what we’re doing.

John Warrillow:

So Joel came back at a number close to what you … Could you give me a percentage basis of how close? Was it 95% of the number? Or 90%? 80%?

Anna Maste:

It was like 95%.

John Warrillow:

Wow. So okay. So pretty … Okay, great. And how was it structured? Was it 100% cash? Was it a proportion of earn-out? Or were you asked to carry equity into Harvest Hosts? What was the structure?

Anna Maste:

Yeah, so it was pretty much all cash. It was about 80% upfront on closing day and the other 20% monthly, over a six month transition period, just essentially contingent on us being available during those six months, to make sure the transition went smoothly. But there was no earn-out, no acquirer. I wasn’t expected to stay on past that six months. And Joel knew that, that obviously my mom had already sort of tapped out and that I had told him previously that if I ever sold, it wouldn’t be because I wanted to keep the money and stay on. It would be because I was interested in moving on to something else.

John Warrillow:

Yeah, yeah. Yeah, that makes good sense. Well, it sounds like an incredible deal. I mean, getting out with six months consulting contract, I mean that’s a pretty sweet, sweet deal and I think a lot of people seeing this would be like, “I want that.” So, that’s amazing.

Anna Maste:

Yeah. I was pretty pleased about that for sure.

John Warrillow:

Yeah, I should imagine. I should imagine. Hey, are you willing to do our Due Diligence, little lightning round of questions here?

Anna Maste:

Oh, sure.

John Warrillow:

Okay. So I’m going to ask you a quick question. I’m looking for a quick answer and I won’t do any follow-up questions. I just want to know your kind of gut reaction to a couple questions before I let you go. What is the slimiest trick an acquirer tried to pull over on you?

Anna Maste:

Gosh, I don’t know. I feel like we’ve had good experiences with acquirers. I don’t want to accuse anybody of being slimy. Just I think-

John Warrillow:

Any of those VCs that came knocking on your door, sort of-

Anna Maste:

Yeah. Probably just asking you to be quicker in your response than you’re really comfortable being.

John Warrillow:

Biggest mistake you made in the selling process.

Anna Maste:

Not nailing down how many hours a week I was consulting for. That was a broad, you’ll be paid X a month for your consulting services without any sort of … I would do it as an hourly contract in the future.

John Warrillow:

Great tip. What was the lowest emotional point you reached during the exit process?

Anna Maste:

Trying to deal with New York lawyers funded by venture capital acquirers of our acquire or investors of our acquirers. Just trying to stomp all over my Canadian lawyer. Definitely, there was a moment where, they’re in the States, we’re in Canada. There’s all sorts of jurisdictional questions and there was like lots of, “You should be adhering to American Laws and all of these things.” And my lawyer was very much, “You cannot guarantee that you have adhered to an American law because you’re a Canadian company and we were only selling asset. We weren’t actually selling the corporation.” [crosstalk 00:57:28] Yeah. So there was a lot of back and forth and there were some low moments there where I was like, “This is just all going to blow up because their lawyers refused to admit and to accept the fact that we’re a Canadian company.”

John Warrillow:

Highest emotional point, you reached through the selling process.

Anna Maste:

I think knowing that my employee was brought on board and given a really great role and a pay increase, and a promotion and that even now, we keep in touch. And I know it’s been a great opportunity for her and that was really important to me.

John Warrillow:

One thing you wished you had known someone had pulled you aside and told you before you went through the selling process.

Anna Maste:

If you’re considering raising your prices, do it sooner rather than later, because that makes a huge difference in your revenue numbers that are going to affect what you’re actually going to be able to get. Don’t wait.

John Warrillow:

What resources did you look at to educate yourself about the exit planning process? Was there an online course, a conference? You mentioned MicroConf was super helpful. Is there anything else in the way of resources that you drew from?

Anna Maste:

Well, your book, John, both your books. The Art Of Selling Your Business, I certainly read during this whole process.

John Warrillow:

Oh good.

Anna Maste:

And Built To Sell, I had listened to the audiobook version of that several years prior, but definitely, that and I think Chris Voss’ Negotiation Book.

John Warrillow:

Yes.

Anna Maste:

I’m trying to remember what it’s called.

John Warrillow:

Never Split The Difference. A great book. It’s super, super good.

Anna Maste:

Yes. Yeah.

John Warrillow:

Yeah. Chris Voss is amazing if you watch him on YouTube too. He’s excellent. Anything else that you could point people to? Any online courses or anything? Any authors? Chris Voss. Thank you for the compliment by the way. Chris Voss is amazing. Anyone else?

Anna Maste:

Honestly, I can’t think of … I’m trying to think of off my … Tyler Tringas I think, has a blog post just about how he sold [crosstalk 00:59:50]

John Warrillow:

He’s been on Built To Sell Radio. We’ll put that in the show notes.

Anna Maste:

Yeah.

John Warrillow:

It’s a great interview.

Anna Maste:

Yeah. So, he had some great sort of pointers and I looked at that both for the prior acquisition offer we had as well. That was a great a resource.

John Warrillow:

Great. And we’ve also mentioned a couple of folks today. Rob Walling, he sold Drip.

Anna Maste:

Drip, yeah.

John Warrillow:

He’s been on the show. We’ll put that in the show notes, BuiltToSell.com as well as Rand Fishkin, Lost And Founder, has been on the show. So we’ll put all those in links in the show notes for this episode, because you’ve referenced those and they’re great stories as well to listen to.

Anna Maste:

Yeah.

John Warrillow:

Final question. What trophy did you buy yourself to celebrate and commemorate this achievement?

Anna Maste:

Yeah, the sad truth is, I bought my kids some laptops and I haven’t really bought myself anything. We did buy a family VR headset, but my goal is to buy us a trip somewhere. But with COVID, we haven’t really been ready to travel yet. So that’s the future big expense that we’re-

John Warrillow:

Next time we do this, I want to hear that you have a trophy, that you can point me towards that commemorates this. You can’t do all this incredible and not have something that you can point to physically to commemorate the amazing accomplishment. I mean, you’ve had this great success. What are you doing now? Are fully retired or you want to do a new thing? What’s next?

Anna Maste:

Ah, so retirement, it’s too early. I still have school aged kids. I don’t know what I would do with myself all day if I was retired. So I’m starting another business and-

John Warrillow:

Oh cool.

Anna Maste:

Unlike this one, which sort of, like I said, we were very naive and didn’t know what we were doing. I feel like, this time, I’ve got a little more clarity and I’m building a B2B marketing SaaS, essentially. One of the problems that I discovered while we were running Boondockers Welcome was just the number of email subscribers who didn’t complete the confirmation step and they’re double opting. So my business, Subscribe Sense tries to help businesses increase that confirmation rate for their email lists.

John Warrillow:

Cool, very discreet application, very specific, but very easy to understand. So that’s @SubscribeSense dot-

Anna Maste:

Subscribesense.com. Yeah.

John Warrillow:

Dot com. Awesome. We’ll put that in the show notes at BuiltToSellRadio.com. Anna Maste, this was super fun. Thanks for doing it.

Anna Maste:

Thanks so much for having me, John. It was really a pleasure.

John Warrillow:

Well, I hope you enjoyed that conversation with Anna Maste. For show notes, including links to everything we referenced in today’s episode, Rand Fishkin’s episode, Rob Walling’s episode, Tyler Tringas, just go to BuiltToSell.com and search out the episode page.

John Warrillow:

Hey, if you’re wondering how you can support the show, the best thing you can do is nominate a guest, BuiltToSellRadio.com/Nominate. The other thing you can do is consider rating the show on any of the big podcasting platforms and while you’re there, hit that subscribe button, so you never miss an episode.

John Warrillow:

Today’s show was produced by Haley Parkhill. Special thanks to Denis Labattaglia for audio and video engineering. And thank you to the entire community of Certified Value Builders who help us bring our message to you. I will be back in your earbuds next week. Thanks again for listening.

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