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Why Robert Glazer Sold His $28 Million Agency

February 18, 2022 |  

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Robert Glazer started an affiliate marketing agency called Acceleration Partners in 2007. Glazer never took outside capital and grew Acceleration to almost $28 million in sales before he sold a majority interest to Mountaingate Capital in 2020.

There’s lots to like about the first in this two-part interview with Glazer including how to:

  • Know when your business may have outgrown your financial capacity to own it (Glazer will explain).
  • Distinguish between owner and manager incentives.
  • Create your phantom equity program for key managers.
  • Structure your deal with a private equity buyer.

P.S.: look out for part 2 next week where we ask Glazer how he evaluates potential acquisitions in his new role of buyer of businesses.

Show Notes & Links

Acceleration Partners

Books written by Robert Glazer

The Entrepreneurs Masters’ Program at MIT Endicott House

[29:05] Robert Glazer: “I’m a big believer in the experience shared in EO and IPO. And I just call all my friends who had done a transaction otherwise and they’re all like, “Hire a banker.” That is the advice I give everyone.”

[55:15] Robert Glazer: “I would find people that have done what it is that you want to do in your industry and buy them dinner. Take them out that hour and take a note pad and ask them these questions; what did they regret? What would they wish they had learned? To me, all of that peer advice was the most valuable thing that I had during the process.”

About Our Guest

Robert Glazer is the founder and CEO of Acceleration Partners, a global partner marketing agency and the recipient of numerous industry and company culture awards, including Glassdoor’s Employees’ Choice Awards two years in a row. He is the author of the inspirational newsletter Friday Forward, author of the Wall Street Journal and USA Today bestseller, Elevate, and the international bestselling books, How To Make Virtual Teams Work and Performance Partnerships. He is a sought-after speaker by companies and organizations around the world and is the host of The Elevate Podcast. Outside of work, Bob can likely be found skiing, cycling, reading, traveling, spending quality time with his family, or overseeing some sort of home renovation project.

 

Connect with Robert:
Instagram

Watch the interview

Transcript

Disclaimer: Transcripts may contain a few typos. With most episodes lasting 60+ minutes, it can be difficult to catch some minor errors.

John Warrillow:

Welcome to another edition of Built to Sell Radio. The podcast that helps you punch above your weight when it comes to negotiating the sale of your company. I’m your host, John Warrillow, and I am thrilled to be back in your earbuds again this week with a very special episode.

John Warrillow:

This is actually the first in a two-part episode. Robert Glazer built and sold a company, and now he’s on the other side of the negotiation table, acquiring companies. And so we’ve structured this two-part interview.

John Warrillow:

The first part describes the sale of his company, Acceleration Partners. And the second part talks about what he looks for in an acquisition, wearing his acquirers’ hat. I think together they make a great combination. So this week we’ll talk to Robert about his sale. Next week, about what he looks for in an acquisition.

John Warrillow:

Before we go any further, this is a bit of a departure for us. And I’m kind of curious about whether you like the discussion with acquirers and whether that brings a new dynamic you’d like to hear more of. So tell me what you think.

John Warrillow:

You can reach me @JohnWarrillow on Twitter. That’s too hard to spell, so go to BuiltToSell.com. You could figure out how to spell it, but it’s @JohnWarrillow. And I would love to hear your thoughts on hearing from acquirers and whether that’s interesting to you on this show.

John Warrillow:

But before we get further into the intro, let me set up Robert Glazer. So Robert built a company, Acceleration Partners, in the affiliate marketing/partner marketing space. Started from scratch, didn’t raise any outside capital, built it to $28 million in revenue before selling it to Mountaingate Capital last year.

John Warrillow:

Big exit and a really exciting entrepreneur who’s got a lot of experience to share. I took a lot of lessons away from this episode. I really liked the discussion we had around the difference between owner incentives and manager incentives.

John Warrillow:

The beginning of the growth of a company, oftentimes, owner and manager incentives are completely aligned. But then as the business grows, they start to pull apart, whereas the managers may want to grow the business in perpetuity and the owner starts to realize they’ve got a lot of money on the line and start to think about selling.

John Warrillow:

And that’s really a divergence that I think Robert did a great job describing for the first time on the show, I think. And I really enjoyed it.

John Warrillow:

He talks a lot about his phantom equity structure and how he thought about that, which I found really fantastic and interesting. He also talks about the typical structure of a private equity deal. I know a lot of the deals that you’re probably looking at right now are private-equity-backed. So I think Robert has some really interesting insights to share on private equity deals in particular in a roll-up situation.

John Warrillow:

So here to tell you his entire story, part one of a two-part episode, is Robert Glazer. Robert Glazer, welcome to Built to Sell Radio.

Robert Glazer:

Thanks, John. Good to be here. Like I said, it feels… I was sitting in a classroom that you were teaching five years ago and your notes were very helpful.

John Warrillow:

Dude, teaching in air quotes. Let’s be clear. Teaching in air quotes.

Robert Glazer:

Took a lot of notes. They were all very relevant.

John Warrillow:

Oh, man. For our listeners, we met at something called The Entrepreneurs Masters Program, which is an EO program done out of the MIT campus at Endicott House. It’s a beautiful building and amazing program.

John Warrillow:

I went through it as a student when it was called Birthing of Giants, which has got to be the most pretentious name on the planet. That’s where we met, where I had the opportunity to come back as alumni, which was really special.

Robert Glazer:

Yeah. And if anyone ever did a longitudinal five or 10-year study of the people in that program, I’d say there’s about an 80% exit rate at five to 10 years.

John Warrillow:

Yeah. I think that’s probably true. Yeah. But I got a ton out of it and it was great to meet you. So let’s talk about Acceleration Partners. For those listeners who don’t know the company, what did you guys do? What industry are you in?

Robert Glazer:

Yeah. I joke with people. I think we’re kind of a big fish in a small pond, although the pond’s been getting bigger. We have been an agency focused on affiliate and partner marketing, which has always been a niche part of E-commerce that has existed for almost 20 years but has gone through a whole bunch of different ups and downs and some scandals back in the early 2000s, which I wrote about in a book called Performance Partnerships.

Robert Glazer:

But basically, because people, I always explain what we do and then they ask me for an example, so now I just go right to it. As opposed to buying clicks or impressions, we help brands, let’s say [Acme.com 00:06:13], connect with hundreds of bloggers or product comparison sites or deal sites or people that control content that write about things related to what [Acme 00:06:23] sells.

Robert Glazer:

Instead of paying for a click or a link, a click or impression, they would write about it, list to a product, talk about it. It’s all tracked through software. Then they’re paid on a performance basis, whether that’s as a percentage of revenue or for lead or otherwise.

Robert Glazer:

It actually looks similar… For years, a lot of people got their service and their technology in one place. And then the industry just started to look more like other industries where you have Facebook the product, but you have a Facebook agency. Right?

Robert Glazer:

You have Google the product, but you have a Google Search agency. we are the agency to people looking to launch mostly enterprise clients doing partner and affiliate marketing programs.

John Warrillow:

Got it. So if I’m, whatever, Nike and I want Mark Cuban to endorse my shoes, they might hire you and your firm to build out a partnership program for them.

Robert Glazer:

Yeah. It would be less about one person than… We want to get thousands of partners and use software to scale up and build a program with thousands of partners rather than… If it’s a one-off thing, it might be a PR or a business development type relationship.

John Warrillow:

Got it. That’s a good distinction. Did you own the underlying software that you used or did you third-party [crosstalk 00:07:40]?

Robert Glazer:

So we’re like the key integration partner to a bunch of big platforms in our industry. We’re kind of like a gold or platinum partner.

Robert Glazer:

Again, similar if you were to buy Salesforce or Infusionsoft or Google, there’s an agency that is a certified partner in that. There’s not a single dominant one in our industry, so we tend to partner with all of them and try to be one of their strongest agency partners.

John Warrillow:

Yeah. There’s a handful of big players. And you’re, if you will, agnostic of any one player. You could play [crosstalk 00:08:16].

Robert Glazer:

Correct. Yeah.

John Warrillow:

Got it.

Robert Glazer:

[inaudible 00:08:17] Because people come to us and they say, “We like the software.” And we say, “Great. We can work with that software.”

John Warrillow:

Great. And so talk about the staffing model. How did you staff this company? Who are the [inaudible 00:08:30] functional roles in the company?

Robert Glazer:

So we, and very intentionally and early on, maybe it’s my background in consulting, two things that we did different than competitors in our industry.

Robert Glazer:

They tended to have more of this marketing model where you’re sold by high level, and then it’s dropped to a junior, and then the person’s working on 20 accounts. Often, in our industry, it was an average of 20 accounts per person.

Robert Glazer:

Our model’s more like consulting in that there’s a senior or a director or a strategist. There’s a manager, an associate. The associate would be more behind the scenes. You talk to the manager week-to-week. You talk to the director biweekly or monthly.

Robert Glazer:

We have almost a one-to-one ratio of programs to people on the delivery team, still to this day. We just believe that building these programs and recruiting partners requires a higher resource level.

Robert Glazer:

I was explaining to someone yesterday, look, you can build a sales team with one person or 10 people. It’s very likely to have different volume and ROI based on how big of a team you want to put against it.

Robert Glazer:

So we tend to manage some of the largest global programs in the world. We have programs that have 10 or 15 people on one account across multiple countries.

John Warrillow:

Wow. What was your revenue per employee?

Robert Glazer:

That’s a good question. Matt’s our numbers guy. I think it’s in the 200,000-ish range.

John Warrillow:

200 grand.

Robert Glazer:

Yeah.

John Warrillow:

Yeah.

Robert Glazer:

[crosstalk 00:09:55].

John Warrillow:

I was going to say because it sounds like a relatively expensive model to staff if you’ve got engagement manager-level people on the client side and then [crosstalk 00:10:02].

Robert Glazer:

Yeah. We are not the cheapest. We are in the upper right corner of high quality, high price. And again, I’ve done the math for people when they’re like, “Oh, and so-and-so is $3,000 a month.” I was like, “But here’s the math of an account manager working on 20 accounts. You’re paying $500 an hour. So I understand it sounds cheaper, but-”

John Warrillow:

“Trust me.”

Robert Glazer:

“It’s not necessarily cheaper.”

John Warrillow:

Yeah. And did you start this business from scratch?

Robert Glazer:

I did. I accidentally got into running a program for a company called Tiny Prints that was very early in the first high-end photo birth card, holiday card announcements.

Robert Glazer:

The affiliate program there just actually connected with tons of mom bloggers. It was one of the first programs that connected with all these content partners when, at the time, everything was very discount and deal-oriented in the affiliate world.

Robert Glazer:

That company sold to Shutterfly for like $300 million. The affiliate program was a huge part of the company by the end of it. It’s a long story how I got there, but classic. I still haven’t met anyone who meant to start an agency. I was saying this to someone the other day.

John Warrillow:

So true.

Robert Glazer:

Because they were talking about non-compete around a deal we were looking at. They were like, “Trust me. I’m not starting another agency.”

Robert Glazer:

We were solving this problem and then I couldn’t do it anymore, and then I hired some more people. And then what happened was all the people left and went around Silicon Valley from Shutterfly to other companies. They were like, “Look, we want to build this sort of program.” And they would call, and it just happened from there.

John Warrillow:

Yeah. Yeah. How did you grow the business? Was it out of cash flow? Did you bring in investors?

Robert Glazer:

No. It was totally out of cash flow. For better or for worse, I always believed in making money. I never was comfortable with the concept of losing money or I would’ve figured out a SaaS business and done a lot better.

Robert Glazer:

But yeah, we grew organically off cash flow. And we had an almost 10-year [inaudible 00:12:09] growth rate of 25%. It was pretty consistent year after year after year.

John Warrillow:

Good for you. And all out of cash flow, which is amazing. One of the questions I have-

Robert Glazer:

Although profit and cash flow are not always the same. In fact, in the years we grew the fastest, cash was strained the most. I think that’s the classic trap that people fall into.

John Warrillow:

Yeah. So on paper, profitable, but your clients are paying 60, 90 days later.

Robert Glazer:

Yeah. You start moving up the client stream and you get to enterprise clients and they pay high amounts of money very reliably 90 days later. And you need to staff those programs. So the gap grows.

John Warrillow:

Yeah. Yeah. For sure. The faster you grow, the more cash you suck up. So as you grow, did you reach a point where you were like, “Man, I’d like to take a little bit of cash out of this business. I’d like to upgrade my car. I’d like to pay off my house.”

John Warrillow:

Was there a point where you were like, “This business is thirsty for cash and I’d like to be the customer for a moment.”

Robert Glazer:

Yeah. But look, I’m a make-it-better, growth person. And I think this is one of my learnings around, I think a lot of people get into growth for growth’s sake. It just feels good to keep growing. It always felt like the right thing to do. It felt like I’d be starving.

Robert Glazer:

I was fine. I didn’t have a lot of needs. Yeah. The perception in some of these cases that the owner is making more and more money is very different than the reality. Again, even if you saw the P&L, it doesn’t tell you the story on the cash flow.

Robert Glazer:

In fact, years where sales slowed, it would improve dramatically. It just always seemed like when we got to a point, there was a whole nother bunch of investments that everyone wanted to make. And actually, that can really become a trap, particularly when you get stuck in just a revenue growth mindset and not an earnings growth mindset.

John Warrillow:

Interesting. How did you retain these very highly sought-after people? I’m just going back to your model of employees where you’ve got these very senior people that are interfacing with these very slick enterprise customers who are, let’s face it, in really high demand right now.

John Warrillow:

What was [inaudible 00:14:35]? Were they getting options? Were they getting deferred comp in some [crosstalk 00:14:40]?

Robert Glazer:

Yeah. So we had a great culture. We’ve won over 25 different Best Places to Work Awards. Actually, the talent was super fractured in our industry and we needed senior people.

Robert Glazer:

So we were a company that went fully remote 10 years ago. We were literally hiding it from clients because we didn’t want them to not take us seriously. We had these Fortune 500 clients and global. And honestly, it was something we were like, we used the word distributed. And then I wrote a book on it years later.

Robert Glazer:

Our culture was very… It’s funny, everyone’s focused on remote, but I always say this, it was a very high performance… It was accountability and flexibility. If you were accountable and a high performer, because everything we did was measured and we did well when our clients did well, you could have that flexibility.

Robert Glazer:

And so that was really attractive to people who wanted that in their life cycle. We had a lot of young parents as employees who had kids and wanted flexibility.

Robert Glazer:

We focused on really being a good place to work. We did a bunch of things that were just a little different in our industry. We just promote people when ready. We would promote them when ready.

Robert Glazer:

We tried to eliminate two-weeks notice, this concept of open transitions like, “Hey. When you want to leave, just let us know and we’ll let you work here and help you find a new job.” Some of the stuff worked, some of the stuff didn’t. But we tried to be a good place to work.

Robert Glazer:

Typically, agencies are kind of turn-and-burn. But 90% of the leaders of our company have grown up in the organization. So we focused a lot on training and leadership training and just moving people up. That’s where growth is helpful because it just creates new roles and new growth paths every year for if you have employees that want to move up.

John Warrillow:

Back to the question. Did they get any incentive-based comp?

Robert Glazer:

Oh, sorry. On that?

John Warrillow:

Any options?

Robert Glazer:

Yeah. So we have bonuses and we did roll out a phantom equity plan for, I would say, the top third of the company at the time. Yeah.

John Warrillow:

How did you structure your phantom equity program? I think a lot of people have heard the term phantom equity, but I think it means a lot of different things to different people. What was the structure of yours?

Robert Glazer:

We changed it a few times. And you’ve got to be careful based on tax stuff. Everyone hires the cheap lawyer early on and then they wish they’d hired the more expensive one.

Robert Glazer:

But basically, it meant to mimic the value creation of the company. And so at the point that you came in, there would be a mark to market, and then there was vesting, and then we would use a metric to value it. And then if you left or if the company was sold, there could be a liquidation point.

Robert Glazer:

I actually wanted to have a way to make sure that if people were there for a time… A lot of companies, it’s like, you lose everything if you leave. And I think that gets you into some dragged-out problems or lawsuits of…

Robert Glazer:

Say someone’s been there from one million to 10 million, and they’re just not the right person from 10 to 20. I think you’d rather pay them for what they’ve done than try to have them hang out or you try to push them out. And then they are pissed because they have this equity. I think that’s the downside.

Robert Glazer:

So I tried to do something a little bit different, which was to let people hold on to the value that they had created. And actually, if they left, get some of that even in lieu of a liquidity event. However, it would probably be a lower value, but at least it was something.

John Warrillow:

So if somebody left after… To use your example, they start at one million, they go to 10, they leave. You were paying them a portion of what they would’ve earned on a liquidity event?

Robert Glazer:

Well, there was just a basic valuation. And then you could say that you were here from one to nine million and you had 1%, so that’s 1% of that nine million or whatever it was. You could do [inaudible 00:18:49]. It’s executed as a bonus really, as a revenue bonus.

John Warrillow:

Okay. And they would earn that, they would basically get a check for that amount of money when they left.

Robert Glazer:

Yes.

John Warrillow:

Got it. Got it. And so in a way, didn’t that incentivize people to leave? Like if they needed to buy a house or a car or whatever, they’re like, “Hey. I’ve got this [inaudible 00:19:11] value.”

Robert Glazer:

It didn’t because the way you have to, not to get into the complication, do these things. But that value probably is not going to… That has to be more of like a book value. Right? It’s probably not going to represent market value.

Robert Glazer:

So if you were to do that, you’d probably be leaving some money on the table because you can’t… Those sort of valuations have to be pretty basic. They don’t tend to be mark-to-market type events.

John Warrillow:

Got it. Yeah. Book value, obviously, being different than the market value [crosstalk 00:19:45].

Robert Glazer:

We had a formula. Right? But again, yes. I don’t know that it’s an incentive to leave. Again, I think if you were there and you…

Robert Glazer:

Like I said, one of the things I think you see, and someone once told me this, most true thing I’ve ever seen growing a company, I think every time the company doubles, you break half your people and half your processes. Right?

Robert Glazer:

And I think if someone got you, was the right person from stage A to B, then they should be valued for that. And then you move on and you reallocate that for someone from B to C. Right? You’re resetting the index for the next person, basically.

John Warrillow:

Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. What was the formula you guys used to value the company for the purposes of the phantom equity program?

Robert Glazer:

It changed a few times. We had to make changes, obviously, as it got more complicated. I think it was just a very simple revenue multiple at the time.

John Warrillow:

Do you recall what multiple of revenue it was?

Robert Glazer:

It might have been 1X or something like that.

John Warrillow:

1X revenue?

Robert Glazer:

Yeah.

John Warrillow:

Yeah. That’d be pretty common for a services business, I would’ve thought.

Robert Glazer:

Yeah.

John Warrillow:

Yeah. Got it. That’s super helpful. So how big did you get this company before you decided to sell?

Robert Glazer:

Let’s see. I think in 2020, we ended up finishing the year high, $28 million, something in that range, in revenue.

John Warrillow:

$28 million?

Robert Glazer:

Yeah.

John Warrillow:

In revenue. And how many employees?

Robert Glazer:

Oh, it’s changed so much. I think it was probably about a little under 200.

John Warrillow:

Got it. Got it. Wow. This is a huge run. And how long did you own the business for? When did you start it?

Robert Glazer:

It had been 14 years, so 2007.

John Warrillow:

Congratulations. That’s incredible growth. And you were able to hang on to all the equity along the way. It’s amazing. [crosstalk 00:21:38]

Robert Glazer:

Yeah. Well, again, we gave a good amount to the team and I think that’s important, but yeah. Services businesses, [inaudible 00:21:46] service business, I hear they’re raising money, it’s not…

Robert Glazer:

You see all the debates with Goldman Sachs and all that stuff. It’s very tricky raising money in a service business because it’s the people. And then you get into this debate with the profits of, is it the people that are selling and generating it? How much do they want?

Robert Glazer:

When you think about Goldman and the shareholders, they can argue, is $10 million enough per partner? Or what should go to the shareholders and what should go to the partners? So I’ve not seen a lot of success with companies, service businesses that have raised money. Yeah. It becomes problematic.

John Warrillow:

Yeah. But in your case, it didn’t matter because you didn’t have to.

Robert Glazer:

It didn’t matter. Nope.

John Warrillow:

Yeah. You were able to grow profits in lockstep.

John Warrillow:

I’m John Warrillow, you’re listening to Built to Sell Radio. And my guest is Robert Glazer, founder and CEO of Acceleration Partners.

John Warrillow:

What changed? What triggered you to want to sell?

Robert Glazer:

As a business starts to get that big, I almost felt like I had this house that I couldn’t afford a little bit. You own the house, but the maintenance is a lot.

Robert Glazer:

We were doing fine and COVID hit, and it was really scary for four to eight weeks. We had actually gotten to a point, we had chased revenue growth a lot because we knew that if we got over $10 million, that was a certain threshold in terms of value creation.

Robert Glazer:

Businesses under $10 million and certain EBITDA level, they tend to be too founder-centric. So I knew I wanted to create something that was valuable beyond myself. And so we got big enough and got to that point.

Robert Glazer:

But in doing that, we were constantly reinvesting and reinvesting. It reached a point where we’re about to harvest those rewards, and the management team, understandably, wants to keep growing and bringing people in. And I’m looking like, “Look, these numbers are getting pretty big.”

Robert Glazer:

And one of the things that I say is I had this half-a-million-dollar home equity line. Well, for a while, our HELOC, our credit line was personally guaranteed by me until we got big enough. And I had this half-a-million-dollar emergency equity line on my house [inaudible 00:24:01]. And for years, that would’ve covered nine months of payroll. And by that time, it would’ve covered not even a month of payroll.

Robert Glazer:

And so I had thought about it kind of like, “Hey, I’d love to do this, but I’m not sure I want to just reinvest or… This is a big checkbook. What it takes to backstop this business right now is more than I have.”

Robert Glazer:

And I think COVID was sort of a wake-up call on that too, in that you can lose everything if you don’t have protection or the right pockets, or the ability to double-down or to invest [inaudible 00:24:42]. It was a scary two months until things stabilized.

Robert Glazer:

Eventually, our industry did pretty well. But I think coming out of that, saying wow, me being the sole backstop for this, having to maybe reach in and find millions of dollars in emergency money, it just felt like too much concentration.

John Warrillow:

Gosh. I think you’ve just articulated, in a really eloquent way, what so many people have felt, but maybe at least in my own experience, have failed to articulate quite so well that you were living in a house you can’t afford. And it’s such a good point because-

Robert Glazer:

Your rich uncle gave you the house, but the oil bills and the taxes and all that stuff. Yeah.

John Warrillow:

Yeah. Yeah. We talk about your company becoming a huge part of your net worth and how that gets a bit scary at times. It sounds like, for you, it was more than just the concentration of equity in one asset. It was, “Okay, if we have a month where things go really sideways,” your payroll at [crosstalk 00:25:49].

Robert Glazer:

Right. This is a service business, so assume your payroll is 90% of those costs, and that’s all people. And I’m like, “Wow.” And this gets personal, but you’re at a decision between you have to put your… You’re putting your family’s welfare against the welfare of other…

Robert Glazer:

I just increasingly was like, “I don’t ever want to be in that position to be like, ‘Well, do I have to choose between my family’s wellbeing and the wellbeing of my employees?'” I’ve seen people get into trouble. Or there are good opportunities and you’re growing.

Robert Glazer:

But yeah, if you look at those numbers and you start to just say, “Yeah. A tough two months or a couple of clients don’t pay or you’re investing a bunch.” Coming up with a couple of million dollars when you have all that wealth tied up in the house, it’s like you have the house without a home equity line. And by the way, the home equity line’s backed by the house, so it’s all circular. Yeah.

John Warrillow:

Yeah. It’s really interesting. At what point were you able to remove the personal guarantee? At what revenue level?

Robert Glazer:

I think that was the year… I think when we got above 10, I went to the bank. Actually, I came out of a forum or a board of advisors. We had actually built a board of advisors that was non-fiduciary, but we had presented them a board meeting, it was great practice.

Robert Glazer:

And one of the board members who really didn’t even understand our business, that was one of the discussions. You go tell them you’re leaving, if you don’t do it and you say, “Look, we’re at this thing.” So I think it was about $10 million. And yeah, that was a $2 million equity line backed by my house, basically, at the time.

John Warrillow:

Yeah. Yeah. I think for a lot of entrepreneurs, it’s a real milestone to get that personal guarantee removed. Right?

Robert Glazer:

Yeah. That felt really, really, really good.

John Warrillow:

Yeah.

Robert Glazer:

Again, the numbers had gotten really… They get big. Right? And you look around… Yeah. The numbers are big.

John Warrillow:

Yeah. Yeah. No, for sure. So what happens next? So you’re at this point, you stabilize after the worst of COVID, the first four or six weeks when everything looks like it’s going upside down. You stabilize. Did you shop the company? Did you hire a banker? What was the next step?

Robert Glazer:

So we survived. We got through the summer. There had been some interest. We had been having some discussions before COVID. We had started. Because I had discussed with the management team, I said, “Look. We’re going to look into this route.”

Robert Glazer:

I started to learn about… There was some interest in our industry. There really hadn’t been private equity and platform in our industry. Our industry was starting to consolidate, the tech players were consolidating, the service players.

Robert Glazer:

So a lot of discussions were going on. Then COVID hit, we stopped all the discussions with everyone and said, “We’ve got to just go man the ship. Stop the bleeding by the summer.”

Robert Glazer:

The industry actually did very well towards the end of COVID when people started to realize, “Hey, when our budgets are precarious and tight or whatever, we’d rather pay only on a performance basis than lay out money and not know what we’re getting back.” We helped companies liquidate stuff.

Robert Glazer:

I think by the fall, when we felt like we could take our breath again and looked around, we restarted some of those discussions. There was a bunch of interest. We had two or three people pretty interested. And based on all of the…

Robert Glazer:

I’m a big believer in the experience shared in EO and IPO. And I just call all my friends who had done a transaction otherwise and they’re all like, “Hire a banker.” That is the advice I give everyone.

Robert Glazer:

The people I see trying to do it themselves, these businesses don’t sell usually. Again, just in my experience and what I’ve seen. And/or they focus on the cost of the banker and not what the delta is in their cost versus what competitive does. I had multiple friends tell me that.

Robert Glazer:

Because a lot of particularly what investors or private equity firms do is they get this shot at this business, they discover it. You think they’d make a really good offer before it went to market.

Robert Glazer:

What most people told me was that last offer that they got before they took it to market was 30 or 40% below where they ended up, on average. And so after I heard that story five times, I learned slowly.

John Warrillow:

Bit of a slow learner.

Robert Glazer:

We went to a couple of the best banks in our industry and picked a good one. And they understood, we did not want a really long, widespread, talk-to-the-whole-world process.

Robert Glazer:

We had some people already interested. We had some other people we thought were interested. And we wanted a pretty smaller controlled process. We were very focused on the right type of partner fit, who the people were.

Robert Glazer:

It wasn’t necessarily going to be looking for the highest bid. I think making a market is extremely important in terms of urgency and price.

John Warrillow:

Yeah. Making a market, for folks listening that may not understand that term, meaning getting multiple potential acquirers to the table at a similar time so they’re all looking at the same information at a similar time.

Robert Glazer:

And look, this was still September 2020. And so, look, the banks and law firms, they were being very aggressive. I got a call from our law firm a year later that they were referenced. They were great.

Robert Glazer:

The price that they quoted them for almost the same size deal was almost double. People were being aggressive with M&A business in fall of 2020.

John Warrillow:

Yeah. I want to make sure people understood also, you referenced hire a banker. You don’t mean walking into Bank of America and hiring a teller or whatever.

Robert Glazer:

No. No.

John Warrillow:

You’re talking about an investment banker, they’re also referred to as a mergers-and-acquisitions professional or a business broker, depending on the size of your company. At the very low end, a business broker.

Robert Glazer:

Broker. Yeah.

John Warrillow:

And mid-market, M&A professional. And then on the high end when you’re selling big, big companies, they’re often referred to as [crosstalk 00:31:45].

Robert Glazer:

Yeah. And look, there’s generalists and specialists. And we went and talked to three specialists in our industry with experience in our industry. That’s another thing, I think there’s a huge difference when people have repetitive experience in your industry.

Robert Glazer:

Because what I’ve actually learned too with bankers is that a lot of the time, the highest bidder is the one who lost out on the last deal with that banker who comes in. Right? They know the person who wanted to buy X agency and lost out on the last one.

John Warrillow:

Yeah. Although I think, and I wondered to what extent you felt this way or you considered this, that if you go with an investment banker or an M&A professional with industry specialization, the risk you run is that they make their living selling companies to one or two businesses.

John Warrillow:

And they’re not going to jeopardize that relationship with that acquirer to get an extra 3% or 4% for you. (A) Were you aware of that potential criticism of going with an industry partner? And (B) if so, how did you get your head around going with one?

Robert Glazer:

Yeah. No, that never came. It’s interesting. I didn’t see that. I had just talked to, again, personal references and experiences of people who just felt like they were very well-served.

Robert Glazer:

Again, our banker had actually worked with one of the top people that was interested. I thought that was an asset in terms of some trust there. But they were good at what they did.

Robert Glazer:

So I can see that. I think we just knew that there was interest in our industry, there was interest in building a platform in our industry. So I think we thought… We just had a strong feeling it was going to be someone in our industry that was going to be the better fit for us.

John Warrillow:

Yeah. Yeah. For sure. I want to explore something, and again, it’s sensitive and I acknowledge that. So if it’s something you can’t talk about, I totally get it. But you referenced earlier that you built a $28 million business, you’ve got a 500 grand HELOC guaranteed against your home.

Robert Glazer:

Yeah. Two things, well, I had the HELOC and then I had the actual equity line for the business at one point.

John Warrillow:

[inaudible 00:34:00]. You had risks personally, your family. You personally, Robert Glazer, had risked a lot to get the business to where it is. And in my shoes, I feel like you, therefore, deserve the lion’s share of the reward. You were all in, personally.

John Warrillow:

And while your managers may have come along for the ride and they were key people, at the end of the day, it was not their home on the line. And so when it comes time to selling, I’m envisioning a conversation among some managers who may have only a small amount out of phantom equity or only a little bit of upside in terms of selling saying, “Hey, Robert, what’s the big rush here? We stabilized from COVID. Things are okay. We’ve got it to $28 million. Why don’t we go to 50?”

John Warrillow:

Was there that sort of tension among the management team that there were some people that were like, “Robert, I don’t want to work for some private equity company. Why do we have to sell?”

Robert Glazer:

There weren’t. I actually don’t think there were because I think we had the right people who had actually invested a lot of blood, sweat, and tears, if maybe not money, and had taken different risks to come to the business when we were smaller. Maybe not at the same level, but I think they took risks.

Robert Glazer:

[inaudible 00:35:26] get into it, but this was really more of a beginning than an end. This was a, “How are we going to become a first $100 million revenue company in our industry?” Huge upside.

Robert Glazer:

We could do this ourselves and continue to use the match and the lighter, or we could get some gas on this. And when we look at what that really means for everyone, and particularly the type of partner that we worked with that really believed in heavily incentivizing management and tying that together, I think that’s what really excited everyone.

Robert Glazer:

They wanted to grow and do that. And they could see that I was not probably willing to fund the growth at the same rate that the business could have supported. And actually, when I look back a year later now on what we have done in a year and what we could have done on our own and where the business is now, that’s a no-brainer.

John Warrillow:

Hey, this is Built to Sell Radio. My guest today is Robert Glazer, the founder and CEO of Acceleration Partners. My name is John Warrillow.

John Warrillow:

But you’ll acknowledge that there is a difference of incentives and a difference of personal situations, right? If you’re a manager, you want to work on bigger companies, more exciting deals, bigger budgets.

Robert Glazer:

Yeah.

John Warrillow:

The LinkedIn resume needs to get primed up. I want to go from VP to senior VP to executive. That’s what I want as a manager. Right?

John Warrillow:

But you’re an owner. Let’s be honest, you could walk away and never work again. It doesn’t really make a difference to you personally whether your title goes from VP to senior VP.

John Warrillow:

So the incentives, I’m acknowledging… I think it’s important to acknowledge that, for an owner, the incentives and the risk, it’s at this point in the company evolution where it becomes very clear that although we all row in the same rowboat and we’re all happy together, and we all make nice that we’re a big family, the owner and his or her managers are in different boats. It’s at this point in the juncture you are not equal.

Robert Glazer:

And I agree with you.

John Warrillow:

Understand.

Robert Glazer:

But I actually think that’s… So we were not equal in the sense that… I think we actually got to the [inaudible 00:37:49] point where, finally, profit was a level where I could start de-risking. Right?

Robert Glazer:

But that actually meant not growing the business and limited upside for people. And that was the divergence that I saw. So actually, for me, the answer was where can we bolt-on and give you guys all the upside where you can really make life-changing money over the next three to five years? Because again, I’ll be okay.

Robert Glazer:

So that’s actually why we sought the type of deal that we did. It definitely wasn’t an ending. If it was an ending, people might have had a different thing. Then it was a beginning to, hopefully, what’s a 5X build of a platform.

John Warrillow:

Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. It’s a really good point. And I think it sets up who you sold to. So let’s go through that. So you make a market, you’ve got this M&A professional who is very steeped in the partner marketing field, knows all the players. [crosstalk 00:38:51]

Robert Glazer:

There was no one in partner marketing, so that was the thing. So we looked at one of the closest things like agency, transactional experience, digital agency experience, and ad tech experience. Those were the two… That’s where they had a lot of experience.

John Warrillow:

Got it. Okay. Thanks for the clarification. So they’re steeped in that space. They shop the deal. How many folks did they shop at too? How many LOIs did you get?

Robert Glazer:

Yeah. So interestingly, we had three people pretty interested. Once we had three people interested, I had all the advice. I don’t want to do this myself.

Robert Glazer:

One of the analogies too that someone said is, look, this is like negotiating with someone who’s buying the home where you’re going to live with them. Right? Everyone I talked to, you want distance, you really want someone in the middle of this, irrespective of price. Just that you’re not doing that with the person that you’re going to potentially work with.

John Warrillow:

Totally.

Robert Glazer:

Which is different if you’re maybe selling it and walking away on the first day, which is not at all what we were doing. So we actually started a process. We had three people already interested. Those people were ahead in the work.

Robert Glazer:

We did indications of intent, we did submit, we started scheduling management meetings. We were able to do it with all three of those first. Before the LOI, one made a letter of intent before the deadline and then we let the others know. There was one we just felt was a really good fit.

Robert Glazer:

And they basically came back, preempted the process, there was some negotiation, we felt like it was a good structure for the type of deal we did. It had all the elements that we were looking for. And we ended up… I remember my last call was with a very well-known… We canceled the management calls in the middle and decided to go with that deal.

John Warrillow:

Wow. I’ve got so many questions there. [inaudible 00:40:53] Were they all private equity or were some strategic agencies?

Robert Glazer:

They were all private equity. It’s a super fractured space, which is interesting in the industry. One of our competitors had… And so people had been studying it and looking at it.

Robert Glazer:

Our investors, they had a thesis on it for a couple of years, they were just very ahead of it. They understood the market, they understood a lot about it. And they just had an incredible track record in marketing services businesses. And for us, that was the real differentiator also. Well, a couple of things, but yeah.

John Warrillow:

What about all the big agency holding companies? I’m surprised they weren’t at the table. Were you intentionally looking for private equity because you wanted your management team to participate in the second [crosstalk 00:41:41]?

Robert Glazer:

Yeah, we wanted to build something. John said this in your interview with him. He and I talked about it. And this goes into the pros and cons of a platform.

Robert Glazer:

When an industry’s rolling up… We had a very strong culture. We believed in our business, we loved our team. And when an industry is rolling up, you can either be the roller, roll in, or I think you get rolled potentially, depending on how fast it rolls.

Robert Glazer:

And so what I understood about it, hey, look, if we are the platform in this, it’s our team, it’s our culture. We get to go find the pieces. This sounds fund. The private equity firms in this space have a model of either minority or majority interest.

Robert Glazer:

You roll in a ton of equity or partners in building it over the next couple of years, but you own your equity in it. It goes into detail, but a lot of these, depending on… You can walk, but you still own your equity, right? No one can take that from you.

Robert Glazer:

The big agency holding companies for years were doing these five-year earn-out deals and stuff. And frankly, they just hadn’t won any deals in the last couple of years in our industry because private equity had become so interested in marketing and services and offering this sort of model.

Robert Glazer:

And the other option was five-year earn-out. I didn’t know anyone that went that route. When I talked to all my peers and other folks that were in EMP, it just was…

Robert Glazer:

The holding companies are going to have to change their strategy because I think the earn-out with not having the control is just so much less attractive than putting your risk in the deal, but separating your role from your equity and your championship of that platform or partnership.

John Warrillow:

Yeah. Let’s make this clear what you were looking at. So you had three offers.

Robert Glazer:

Yeah.

John Warrillow:

And one of them was… Ultimately, the successful acquirer was Mountaingate. Is that right?

Robert Glazer:

Yes. Mountaingate Capital.

John Warrillow:

Mountaingate.

Robert Glazer:

Yep.

John Warrillow:

Got it. Yeah. And so you had two other acquirers, both of which were private equity groups. Were they proposing similar deal structures?

Robert Glazer:

Very similar deal structures.

John Warrillow:

And what was this deal structure?

Robert Glazer:

Majority, recap, rollover. I guess we didn’t get into the nuance of all of them. There’s one thing that Mountaingate does that subsequently I think is more different than I came to understand.

Robert Glazer:

At a high level, they were all similar percentages. They were in the same ballpark. Similar to the banking decision… I knew someone who was in year three of a partnership with them who since was Tinuiti. Ben Kirshner had a phenomenal outcome and just raved about the team.

Robert Glazer:

And I had gotten to know them over a year or two. And similar to the banking thing, we had two firms who I also really loved who were generalists. And Mountaingate was a specialist and they had just done this over and over again in marketing services.

Robert Glazer:

We just had gotten to know the team. And just the fact that they had executed this playbook and understood the industry, and we just felt like they were going to be the right partner for us.

John Warrillow:

Okay. So they made an offer. If you don’t mind me asking, what was the multiple of earnings that they offered?

Robert Glazer:

Yeah. I’ll tell you the industry ones because [inaudible 00:45:16]. Marketing services that I’ve seen, and again, this could go from one million to 10 million, at the time, the multiples were five to, I think the most anyone in the industry had paid was 10 or 11, depending on size. With most of the things in the industry, they were at an eight or nine level.

John Warrillow:

Got it. And so I’m going to read into that you were in that space somewhere.

Robert Glazer:

Fair assumption. Yeah.

John Warrillow:

Got it. We’re in this eight or nine space, but that’s not all cash at closing. Right?

Robert Glazer:

Right.

John Warrillow:

They’re buying a majority, so more than half.

Robert Glazer:

Yeah.

John Warrillow:

Was it a 60% and then a 40% rule [crosstalk 00:45:58]?

Robert Glazer:

Yeah. It was in majority range. And look, and one of the things that we didn’t have the data on that time, but the vast… Because people tend to be focused on the upfront. The vast majority of… Actually, in every single company in this Mountaingate fund, the second return has been considerably higher than the first.

John Warrillow:

Got it. So-called second bite of the apple.

Robert Glazer:

Yeah. And so one of the things too that was different, and I’ve seen this in a different transaction is, look, preferences are really important.

Robert Glazer:

Mountaingate is very big on a partnership model. They’re a small firm. They do not operate businesses. They want to be helpful, not hurtful. I know everyone says this, but also, you got to look at the makeup of a firm.

Robert Glazer:

I had a coach of mine who was used to big-buyout private equity, and he’s very cynical and he’s been through and he’s like, “Look, there are these operating teams there. They’re just waiting. They’re ex-CEOs waiting to take your job.”

Robert Glazer:

For Mountaingate, it would be a worst-case scenario to have to replace a leader that wasn’t going into it or someone wanting to do succession. There aren’t people to run the business. The folks who worked on our deal from the sourcing standpoint was our team that we’ve worked with since that day.

Robert Glazer:

But the rollover, and not just me, but actually, the phantom equity, all the management team was same percentages. They want to see everyone roll that in.

John Warrillow:

So the phantom equity holders got majority of their cash up front and then a fairly significant-

Robert Glazer:

Same thing. Yeah.

John Warrillow:

Yeah. Are you able to share? Was it 60/40? Are you able to share that [crosstalk 00:47:38]?

Robert Glazer:

Yeah. In that range.

John Warrillow:

Yeah. Yeah. And the other two deals, I’m reading in that they were similar multiples and similar equity rules.

Robert Glazer:

Similar equity rules. And again, we didn’t get into the details of this. And again, I probably would’ve learned this in the process, but one of the things that Mountaingate does is that everyone has the same security.

Robert Glazer:

So their cash that they put in the deal and invest is the same security, same preferences as anyone who rolls in. There’s no way for them to do well and not us to do well. And again, if you’re going to talk about partnership, that is a partnership model.

Robert Glazer:

I have seen other offers and I was part of one where the rollover was subordinate to preferred equity. Right? They’re saying, “Look, you’re rolled over dollars or not the same as our hard dollars.” And that creates two classes of shareholders. And this is a big part of their model.

John Warrillow:

And did you get a sense of what their thesis is for improving the valuation? Because marketing services, in your own description, they’re not getting huge multiples. Even if you grew the business bigger and bigger, the multiple increase is not going to be… You’re not going to double or triple the multiple. It’s going to be a small increase.

Robert Glazer:

Yeah.

John Warrillow:

What’s the thesis to… How are they going to [crosstalk 00:49:02]?

Robert Glazer:

They have averaged about 4X return on the first five companies.

John Warrillow:

How do they do that? What’s the thesis?

Robert Glazer:

So the thesis is customer-centric and is to figure out… They have a build-and-buy strategy. So tech enablement is what anyone needs to get a premium. If you’re building a larger company these days, some sort of technology that helps you do what you do better.

Robert Glazer:

And then they did this with Elite SEM and Tinuiti. We hired a group to interview all of our customers, look at the market, figure out what did our customers want to buy and what did they want to buy from us that we didn’t have? And this is where they’ve had tremendous success.

Robert Glazer:

There are a lot of things focused on… Look, private equity has a million different flavors, right? There’s the cost-cutting private equity. This is not. This is growth.

Robert Glazer:

There’s the sort of scale private equity. This is true growth. What they’ve been really successful is one plus one equals three. What are the other things that we could add organically or buy that our existing customers would want to buy?

Robert Glazer:

Those new customers would want to buy our services where it is not just buying for scale, but buying… Again, that’s the one plus one equals three. And so that formula. So we sat down, they paid a substantial amount of money for this initial market research, which was both talking to our customer, and this is what they do at the beginning with everyone, and then also, looking at the market.

Robert Glazer:

And we built a map of, “Okay, by the end of our four or five-year period, this is what our revenue should be. This is the breakdown.” We’re planning on 25% of the revenue to be in services that we didn’t even offer a year ago.

Robert Glazer:

And we had a real thesis for what people were going to want from a partner marketing services firm and where things were going to consolidate in the industry. And that really drives our M&A path and our map and everything we do.

Robert Glazer:

So I was super impressed with this is not… Again, they are not the type of person who would just tell us to buy something for scale because that’s just putting two things together. That’s not getting the cross-sell, upsell margin improvement from it.

John Warrillow:

Yeah. No, for sure. And I appreciate you sticking with me there through that explanation. And for folks who want to get your lens on how you think about it from a buyer’s perspective, because I now know with Mountaingate’s backing, you’re now buying companies, we’re going to do that in our next episode next week. So make sure you check that out.

John Warrillow:

I want to finish today’s episode with a quick lightning round we call Due Diligence.

Audio:

It’s time for Due Diligence, the point in the show where our guests answer a series of rapid-fire questions.

John Warrillow:

I’m just looking for a quick short answer to a series of questions. You into this?

Robert Glazer:

I’m good.

John Warrillow:

Okay. Slimiest tactic an acquirer tried to use on you to pull the wool over your eyes.

Robert Glazer:

Honestly, we didn’t have any. We had great people we talked with and it was so fast. So I can just tell you the one I’ve heard the most and that is the quick LOI and then the six-month drag-out. Right?

Robert Glazer:

I am in a group with someone, one of these peer groups in which they… After his company was acquired, they were told by the department that… They renegotiated at the last second. Because you get exhausted. You get just physically exhausted, emotionally. But that was literally their tactic was to come in at the 11th hour and lower the price, and that was just part of the business model.

Robert Glazer:

I think the way most entrepreneurs… You can really insulate yourself against that with, and they’re necessary in this market, but short windows like 45-day, 60-day windows where, by the end of 30 days, you know this thing is moving or it’s not.

Robert Glazer:

It seems to me like the longer it goes, the more one side’s going to end up overwhelmed or underwhelmed. So I felt super lucky that we had a very quick thing with highly ethical people. So I didn’t see anything slimy directly.

John Warrillow:

Biggest mistake you made in the process.

Robert Glazer:

And this will go to our second episode. I wish I had paid more attention to how our industry valued companies. Right? And really paid attention [inaudible 00:53:29] our own metrics.

Robert Glazer:

I think we tried to keep growing for growth’s sake. Ours is an EBITDA-oriented industry. And I think if we had oriented ourselves around that and our management philosophy and stuff earlier… It was hard to get people off the revenue growth mindset after being on it for so many years.

Robert Glazer:

The other thing I would just say is it is physically and mentally exhausting and debilitating, the due diligence process. It actually takes months to recover from. And I’ve talked to people at the beginning of it and they’re really… I’m like, “Just prepare yourself. This is going to be terrible.” Even in a good deal, it is.

Robert Glazer:

And I remember, actually, one day we are international and the law firm sent us 22 questions about the one Italian employee we had and whether we used certain algorithmic hiring in Italy. And I just lost it.

Robert Glazer:

I sent the investor a note, I was like, “This is just ridiculous.” He’s like, “You’re hitting grade-four deal fatigue.” He’s like, “It happens to everyone.” And at this point, you just want to go, screw it. He’s like, “You need a good night’s sleep.” Those 60, 90, whatever days I think will be the longest of your life and you should prepare for that.

John Warrillow:

One resource you would recommend other entrepreneurs use. An online course, a conference, we’ve already talked about EMP. Something that people can buy to educate themselves about the exit process.

Robert Glazer:

Your book’s pretty good. I don’t want to pitch that to people. I’m not sure it’s much as buying as it is, I would find people that have done what it is that you want to do in your industry and buy them dinner.

Robert Glazer:

Take them out that hour and take a note pad and ask them these questions; what did they regret? What would they wish they had learned? To me, all of that peer advice was the most valuable thing that I had during the process.

John Warrillow:

A trophy you bought yourself to commemorate the exit.

Robert Glazer:

From a health standpoint, actually, I bought an infrared sauna and one of those cordless vacuums. I wanted one of those for a while.

John Warrillow:

Yeah. Robert Glazer sold his business for millions and he bought a vacuum cleaner. That’s the way we’re going to market the episode.

Robert Glazer:

That’s me. That’s our investors. I’m not a trophy guy. [crosstalk 00:56:01]

John Warrillow:

Bought a vacuum.

Robert Glazer:

Oh, Dyson. Those really cool [crosstalk 00:56:06].

John Warrillow:

Okay. [crosstalk 00:56:06] a higher-end one.

Robert Glazer:

Yeah. Right. A totally overpriced vacuum. And I bought-

John Warrillow:

You had me at infrared sauna, by the way.

Robert Glazer:

And I bought an infrared sauna because I needed it at that point too. It was the middle of winter. It was the middle of COVID. Yeah.

Robert Glazer:

The advice I actually got from a lot of folks and having [inaudible 00:56:27] was don’t buy anything for six to 12 months. Just wait and see how it plays out, how you feel. A lot of people regretted things that they bought after those events.

John Warrillow:

Yeah. No, for sure. For sure. Sage advice. We’re going to do round two next week. But for folks who want to reach out, is there a place they can learn about Acceleration Partners or you personally?

Robert Glazer:

Sure.

John Warrillow:

Where would you want people to-

Robert Glazer:

Yeah. Acceleration Partners, you can Google it. It’s probably easier than spelling. Or it’s accelerationpartners.com if you want to learn more about what we do. And then I’ve got stuff I write and podcasts and some stuff on the experience, that’s at robertglazer.com. G-L-A-Z-E-R.

John Warrillow:

And we’ll put all that in the show notes as well. You also wrote an amazing blog post which we’re going to reference in next week’s episode that gives people some benchmarks to think about and some drivers to think about. And we’ll put all that at BuiltToSell.com as well. So check that out. Robert, thank you for doing this.

Robert Glazer:

Great. Thank you, John.

John Warrillow:

Thanks for listening today. But Robert Glazer’s story is not quite over. Next week, in part two of our conversation, I’ll speak to Robert about his experience evaluating more than 50 deals from the other side of the negotiation table, from the buyer’s perspective.

John Warrillow:

I don’t think you’re going to want to miss a second of this interview. We’ll talk to you next week.

John Warrillow:

Hey, so I hope you liked today’s episode. If you did and you like this whole building-to-sell ethos, you might want to give us a follow on the social platforms. There, we upload, obviously, every episode of Built to Sell Radio, but also, we do blog posts and whitepapers and E-books and all kinds of other goodies. Again, all of it on the socials @BuiltToSell.

John Warrillow:

Built to Sell Radio is produced by Haley Parkhill. Our audio and video engineer is Denis Labattaglia. If you like what you’ve just heard, subscribe to get a new episode delivered to your inbox each week. Just go to BuiltToSell.com.

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